Is the history/etymology of names appropriate?

Question

I asked a question about the history of names. The question text is asking about the origin of a practice of family names or surnames. There is some contention as to whether this question is on topic for the site, with user Oldcat making the claim that the question is more about history and culture, outside the scope of the language involved.

I think the question is on topic for the site. My reasoning goes like this:

1. Proper names of English speakers are words in the English language.
2. Etymology and the history of words' development are on topic for the site.
3. Etymology includes the origins, form, and construction of words.
4. Q.E.D., the etymology of names are on topic for the site.

Regarding point 1, I think the main reason for this is that because English speakers recognize them as words. Clearly, all names of people (and of all things) are a part of a language, but English names belong to the English language just as Norwegian names belong to the Norwegian language.

Regardless of whether or not names belong in a dictionary, I don't think it's stretching at all to claim that they are words belonging to a particular language (or set of languages, if they are common). You could argue that names supersede any particular language: I would expect people to call me by my given name, regardless of the language they speak (provided I could communicate my name to them in the first place). But similarly, if I were speaking to a Japanese speaker and told them my name (even if I spoke perfect Japanese), they would know it was not a Japanese name; some might even recognize it as an English name.

I would agree that questions about a specific name or a specific point in history, like "Why did Lisa overtake Mary as the most popular baby girls name in USA in 1964?", that question would primarily about culture and history and therefore off-topic about for the site. Similarly, questions about German names would be off topic (and need to be asked on a site about the German language).

However, as an example, imagine that a native English speaker (call him Bob) encountered someone named Adam Bzxphilq-Werhbarchkt. Bob would likely infer that this person's surname is a blend of two other family names by marriage. Either

1. Adam was originally named either Bzxphilq-Werhbarchkt and married someone with the other name.
2. This person's parents' family names were Bzxphilq and Werhbarchkt.

Bob would make this inference without any recognition of those particular names (which I just made up; any likeness to real family names is purely coincidental). I think Bob's inference is a convention of the English language above and beyond any particular name, culture or (pure) history discussion that probably has a particular origin, is worth studying, and is on topic for the site.

In other words, even if we accept that names supersede or fall outside of a particular language, the question I asked still falls under the usage of the language because the construction of a hyphenated last name has meaning to an English speaker beyond the actual names involved.

There are other questions on the site about the etymology of names (such as this and this) that an equal argument could be made against. I think this hinges on where we draw the distinction between culture and language. Words are undeniably a part of our culture as much as our language, but that doesn't stop us asking questions about e.g. the language of Baseball in USA or Cricket in Britain.

What say ye mods?

Answer 1

English proper names follow most of the same rules and customs as other English words, and they're subject to the same evolutionary forces. They’re clearly different from names in other languages: John Paul II is distinctly English whereas Ioannes Paulus II and Jan Paweł II are not. They follow English rules for inflection and combination, such that we can sensibly ask how to form plurals or possessives of English and Anglicized names (and people often do ask those questions here).

The help center notes that giving names to things is off-topic here. But I presume that's not so much because the rules for names are different, but that naming is substantially like writing advice: too complex and subjective to give authoritative answers. I don't think analyzing names should be off-topic, and I object to closing existing questions about it (unless they are close-worthy for other reasons).

All that said, I'm not sure whether the specific question about hyphenated names is on-topic, because I'm not sure whether it's an English naming custom. (But determining whether it's distinctly English is perhaps an interesting ELU question in itself).

Update: Cerberus’s excellent answer to Patrick M’s question shows that it’s more a matter of European custom than English language, and I agree with the decision to migrate it to Genealogy. If it had been a more distinctly English custom, however, I believe that it would have been equally on topic here and at Genealogy. But wishes aren’t horses.

Answer 2

I agree with 2 and 3, but disagree with #1, so #4 doesn't work out for me. Proper names aren't particular to English. My surname could be English, but could just as easily be Irish or German or a corruption of some original Norwegian name.

Maybe you could skate by with something like "Why are English names usually given name followed by family name?" but even then, it's stretching it because it is asking about custom and not about English.

I agree with your suggestion that the other two questions are in the same category, so I closed them.

Answer 3

Proper names are words in the English language.

Proper names can be anything at all and don't have follow any of the conventions of the English language. There is going to be a fuzzy line where some things are "interesting" and "on-topic" where others will not be but I don't think proper names are very relevant to understanding how the English language works.

So my internal ruling goes like this:

• Is this question relevant to English aside from proper names?
• If not, it is off-topic
• If so, use the other example instead

This isn't to say that all questions about proper names are inherently off-topic but I think anything along the lines of the linked question is way off-topic for the following reasons:

• Surnames are a cultural issue and are not standard across the English language
• Surname particularities are family specific and, therefore, this isn't even extremely interesting within a particular dialect of English
• Most of the content in your post is even further off-topic and ventures into opinions and strictly historical musings

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EDIT.

However, as an example, imagine that a native English speaker (call him Bob) encountered someone named Adam Bzxphilq-Werhbarchkt. Bob would likely infer that this person's parents' family names were Bzxphilq and Werhbarchkt, without any recognition of those particular names (which I just made up; any likeness to real family names is purely coincidental). I think Bob's inference is a convention of the English language above and beyond any particular name, culture or (pure) history discussion that probably has a particular origin, is worth studying, and is on topic for the site.

To use your own example against you, your guess isn't even correct. In American culture a hyphenated surname is usually due to marriage and not parental names. But even that isn't always true since it depends on the culture of the family. Central American families tend to inherit their surnames based on gender and just stack them together instead of using middle names. Kind of. The point being that this has nothing to do with the language since they continue the practice for generations after immigrating to English speaking countries. Maybe -- it depends on the family.

Answer 4

Yes. Questions about the origin of people's names are on topic, if the name is considered an English name.

By English name I don't name that it originated in England, I mean that it is a name of someone whose native language is English.

Once that is the case it becomes part of the English language, and so fair game to ask where it came from at EL&U.

So the question about the origin of colour surnames in the English language is on topic. And the question about where Stimpson comes from is on topic. And asking where hyphens in English names come from is on topic.

However, I agree that the last example is better asked at Genealogy.SE.

Language and culture inform each other. They are not independent.

As an aside, IIRC, nohat has reopened questions about the pronunciation of names in English. I don't see why the origin is less valid.