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As a relative newcomer to ELU, I'm often struck by the lack of voting on questions here, and especially upvoting. It might be case that you receive many poor questions, but compared to for instance BiologySE (where I'm more active) the difference is striking. There, voting on questions is more generous and liberal than voting on answers, following the principle that many can evaluate the quality of questions while it's more difficult to evaluate if answers are correct. Here at ELU, the pattern seems to be almost the opposite.

Looking a questions from the last two days (112 questions), 70 of them have a score of 0 or lower (median zero, 22 with a negative score), even if many of them, to me, live up to the statement: "This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear". As comparison, the number of zero or lower voted questions out of the last 100 at a couple of other SE-sites is (number of Qs with a negative score in parenthesis): Academia-SE 35/100 (14), Biology-SE 33/100 (11), and Tex-SE 33/100 (2). I understand that communities are different, but I still think these numbers can be informative. Overall, the lack of upvoting seems to be the biggest issue for ELU, and the average scores of upvoted questions at the other sites are also much higher.

My main point is that the initial impression of ELU is rather hostile and focused on negatives. Since people here seem rather hesitant to vote up, it is also easy for single downvotes to tip the scales so that questions (and answers) end up with a negative score. Again, some questions and answers certainly deserve this, but to me, many useful questions and answers end up with a score of zero or lower at ELU.

For full disclosure, this post was sparked by my own last question, which currently has a single downvote. This question is certainly not excellent or very advanced, but I fail to see why the overall impression should be: "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful".

Help me understand why voting on questions is so sparse at ELU, and why there is a relative lack of upvotes compared to many other StackExchange sites?
What makes ELU different?

  • 3
    I don't know that we can reliably, or even speculatively, answer this. All votes are private, so you will have to ask every user individually. There's only one person we know of that goes around downvoting a lot. (And even for him, the focus lies on answers, not questions.) So at the end of the day we can only establish this: 1) the hive mind finds the average question on ELU more crap than the average question on Biology and 2) not that there's anything wrong with that. For starters, I don't know how many people on Biology can spell "biology", but not many people here can spell "English". – RegDwigнt Mar 20 '15 at 13:17
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    Also, it was only earlier today that I came across a blatantly off-topic question that was not even a question but a rant, and it had 3 upvotes. So perhaps the solution is for people to post more rants. – RegDwigнt Mar 20 '15 at 13:22
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    @RegDwigнt I'm well aware that voting is private, and I'm not expecting a definite answer. However, the community creates expectations through how we behave at the site and in EL&U-meta, which will lead to voting behaviours, proceedures for closing etc. In that sense, I think it is a reasonable discussion to have. Is the difference in voting behaviours at EL&U compared to other sites due to the quality of questions, attitudes in the user base, established practice, something else, or all of the above? – fileunderwater Mar 20 '15 at 13:32
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    Only one in a hundred questions on this site is good in my opinion. I only wish I had more downvotes to give out each day. (Note that I generally don't downvote questions from new users even if they're offtopic. But once they've got some rep they should know a little better.) – curiousdannii Mar 21 '15 at 23:57
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    I can see why your question (in its original form) earned a downvote. You said you didn't want to use vessel because "dictionaries usually focus on vessel as a container of liquids," yet your question asked the community to come up with a word that fit into "Y can be viewed as containers used to transfer X." That seems to qualify as unclear! (Questions that use "X" & "Y" when seeking out a single word are frustrating, because it's hard to suggest words when X & Y are unknown.) In this case, the downvote mechanism worked as intended – it prompted you to clarify and eliminate the ambiguity. – J.R. Mar 27 '15 at 9:11
  • @J.R. Fair point. I have been thinking about the voting at EL&U for a while though, and the mention of my own question was mostly there to explain my direct motivation for posting this question. The point I am trying to make is general to EL&U. – fileunderwater Mar 27 '15 at 9:17
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    Oh, well, if you're talking about ELU in general, then I'm curious how you'd explain the is girl meet die question, or the Shakespearean trash-talk question. I believe most ELUers are hungry to vote a question up – if only a question worthy of an upvote would come along! Alas, if we had more people who asked like Yoichi, perhaps this wouldn't be a perceived problem. – J.R. Mar 27 '15 at 9:27
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    As a footnote, some may wonder, "How did a octogenarian in Japan get to become a moderator on an English site?" I'll tell you: by earning a lot of respect, which came from asking superior questions. (He's earned the Nice Question badge more than a hundred times!) – J.R. Mar 27 '15 at 9:28
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    @fileunderwater: Hopefully this question is old enough that I can voice my opinion on your (excellent) question without drawing too much attention. ELU invites a detail-oriented, critical, even persnickety approach to English grammar. Which is good. But once you get into that persnickety groove, it's all too easy to cross the line from picking on a person's usage of English to picking on a person's usage of ELU itself. Which is bad. But I'm seeing a spirit of patience, kindness, and forbearance begin to pervade ELU, which I hope grows. – William Bloom Mar 31 '15 at 9:53
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    In any case, the occasionally nasty attitude we see toward well-meaning questions that may be off-topic is, in my view, itself a violation of stackexchange's rules. Being nice is actually a rule here. english.stackexchange.com/help/be-nice – William Bloom Mar 31 '15 at 9:56
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As an active user of both ELU and Biology.se, I might be able to shed some light on this. First of all, the scope here is very specific and very rarely understood by our users. This is not a site for questions that any native speaker of English could answer. It is a site for

linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts.

In other words, any question whose answer is known to the average native speaker of English is off topic here.

We get a huge number of questions that are simply too basic for this site. In fact, this was (and is) a big enough issue to warrant the creation of a spin-off site, English Language Learners. You know all those poor homework questions we keep getting on Biology.se? Well, the equivalent here is a wealth of questions that any native speaker would be able to answer. Unfortunately, because this site is much larger than Biology, the number of such questions we get is enormous. The community, therefore, is far more stingy with their upvotes since they are the best way we have of showing what questions we want here. On Biology, on the other hand, we're still in beta and are making a conscious effort to improve our voting stats.

Basically, while Biology.se is open to both professional Biologists and laymen, this site is not. It is not a site for simple queries about the use of the English language. It is targeted at "serious" language enthusiasts. A term that is, admittedly, very vague but gives you an idea of the scope.

That's the general problem. In the case of your question specifically, I'm guessing that you are running afoul of two problems. First, single word requests are particularly disliked by the site's regulars. They are rarely very interesting as questions, they are often very badly written and often ask for absurdly specific words. For more on that, see the meta discussions here and here, and the many similar posts.

Secondly, you don't provide enough context for someone to understand what you really need to say. You explained what X is but what is Y? Where will you be using this phrase? In what context? Is this technical writing? Popular science? A newspaper article? The more you tell us, the better your chances of getting a useful answer.

So, in conclusion, a single word request is very unlikely to get many upvotes here and while people do actually vote (and more so than in Biology as far as I can tell), they choose what they vote on carefully.

  • 3
    So you are basically saying that you get many questions that are off-topic for the site. In that case, I do not understand why so few zero-or-lower voted questions are closed, instead of downvoted. If you look at recent questions at EL&U relatively few are closed, compared to e.g. BiologySE and AcademiaSE. Or are questions so quickly deleted or migrated that they do not show up in the question queue? It would be unfortunate if downvotes are used instead of close votes to label off-topic questions, since questions can be well-formed and "useful" while still being off-topic. – fileunderwater Mar 20 '15 at 13:59
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    @fileunderwater it takes one person to downvote, but five people to close. (And five people with a much higher reputation, too.) You will not find many questions that are sitting open at minus five. And I don't think you are really meaning to suggest that we close every question as soon as one person doesn't like it for reasons unspecified. – RegDwigнt Mar 20 '15 at 14:06
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    As for the difference between BiologySE and this site, the stated audiences are very similar ("Biology Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for biology researchers, academics, and students."), and BiologySE is not meant for laymen. The stated scope of EL&U in your middle paragraph is a good description of BioSE as well (professionals and "serious" biology enthusiasts), so I don't see a difference there. There might be a difference between the sites in practice though, and I appreciate that the size of the site is a factor as well. And thanks for the comments on my specific question. – fileunderwater Mar 20 '15 at 14:07
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    I must say I didn't even realize Biology was still in beta. That certainly is a factor. Once you start getting 300000 visitors a day, I'm sure things will start looking different and you will have to fight hard to preserve your scope. Rather than finding ways to be more welcoming, you will need to find ways to be less welcoming. – RegDwigнt Mar 20 '15 at 14:10
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    Also, what about the relatively big differences compared to AcademiaSE and TexSE? Those are also large, established sites, the latter arguably with an even narrower scope than EL&U. I don't find the "EL&U is so special"-argument very convincing. To me, the attitude here just seems very different. – fileunderwater Mar 20 '15 at 14:14
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  • @fileunderwater regarding Biology, we're much more open to basic questions there. That might change as the site moves away from beta but at the moment, there is a dearth of expert questions, and we allow very basic ones as well. ELU is not "special" it's just several orders of magnitude larger than either Biology or Academia (~50k Qs here compared to ~7k in Biology and 8k in Academia) and, unlike TEX.se has a scope that is very often misunderstood by new users. – terdon Mar 20 '15 at 15:38
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    @phenry yes, OK, I've read your argument there. However, you are well aware that there is a core set of users who dislike the more basic questions. Whether or not the site's scope should be modified is another issue. That we have so many closed questions is down to their general (or at least a relatively common) perception of our scope. – terdon Mar 20 '15 at 15:39
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    @fileunderwater Without any hyperbole whatsoever, there are billions of people who either already (think they) know English or else who (think they) want to learn it. The same can be said of no other SE site’s potential readership: no, not one! To disregard that staggering difference is either naïve, disingenuous, or innumerate. But it is not my place to speculate which of those three categories you may or may not currently fall into; you must make that assessment on your own and react accordingly. – tchrist Mar 20 '15 at 17:15
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    @terdon There are infinitely many "Is this right?" questions, ones which even if answered would never help anybody else but that one individual asking for proofreading of their résumés and personals ads. It’s the English version of just-gimme-da-codez begging. Those questions do nothing to help build up a quality site. To the contrary, they work counter to that goal. – tchrist Mar 20 '15 at 17:21
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    @tchrist Well, being given those three options, from somebody clearly incapable of viewing the issue from some distance, is a fairly good representation of the somewhat hostile attitude I sense when visiting the EL&U. Also, if you don't see the hyperbole in comparing the billions of useless English speakers barraging you with... wait for it... about 60 questions per day, then I cannot help you. To me, 60 questions would appear quite manageable for the relatively large active user base here, and the ratio of Qs/day to number of active users is comparable to i.e. AcademiaSE or BioSE. – fileunderwater Mar 20 '15 at 20:04
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    @fileunderwater touchè! – Mari-Lou A Mar 21 '15 at 7:51
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    @fileunderwater You have to date voted on only 32 ELU postings! I have voted on more than 20,000 of them. That gross disparity of three orders of magnitude between us makes me absolutely certain that I stand in a superlatively better position than you do to view these matters from the appropriate perspective. Tell ya what: come back when you have hit 10,000 and then we’ll talk. Until then, you simply haven’t the perspective. – tchrist Mar 21 '15 at 23:54
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    @tchrist Oh, dear Christ, in two senses of the word. Did you notice the first sentence in my question: "As a relative newcomer to ELU...'" (but not a newcomer to SE as a whole)? I think we are finished with our exchange though. I was trying to offer a perspective on EL&U in relation to other SE-sites, and you can do what you want with this information, and I was honestly interested in hearing your possible explanations for the voting differences. Hopefully my question has led to some useful discussions, together with the defensiveness and territorial pissings that seems to go along with that. – fileunderwater Mar 22 '15 at 13:03
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I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I view upvoting as appropriate in two situations: (1) when I think that a question or answer is especially interesting or insightful or well presented, and (2) when a question or answer that seems reasonable and unobjectionable, though not particularly outstanding, has been jumped on by one or more downvoters whose low opinion of the question or answer is not (in my opinion) justified. I don't downvote, because I think that the more appropriate way to handle unusually bad questions or answers is to close them.

On the other hand, I don't see any reason to habitually upvote run-of-the-mill questions and answers that fall into the "reasonable and unobjectionable" category, just because they satisfy the standards for inclusion on the site. And since I'm strongly interested in relatively few categories of questions that appear on EL&U, I rarely feel inclined to upvote questions that fall into other areas—such as single-word requests, syntactic analysis requests, and parts-of-speech labeling requests—even on the rare occasions when I try to answer them.

If the attitude of other site users toward the subject areas within EL&U that interest them (and that don't interest them) is similar to mine, then right out of the gate you have far fewer people voting at all on, say, "grammaticality" questions or "style" questions or "terminology" questions than you might expect given the number of participants on this site.

Also, some users feel strongly that certain categories of questions shouldn't be welcomed (or tolerated) on EL&U at all. So in addition to low upvote totals owing to Balkanized interests within the universe of subjects covered by EL&U, you have the possibility of some quick-trigger downvoting of questions and answers that fall into categories that individual users want to discourage because they consider them inappropriate for the site.

Ultimately, I think that the low upvote totals for many perfectly acceptable questions and answers on EL&U aren't really much of a problem. Just because a particular category of question has few enthusiastic followers—and therefore garners few upvotes—doesn't mean that the questions and answers it attracts can't be well conceived, well expressed, and useful.

I am more concerned that certain question categories (such as "punctuation" and "style") not be banished from EL&U because some users deem them incompatible with the scholarly mission of a site truly dedicated to linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts. I take a broad view of what the word usage in the phrase "English Language and Usage" encompasses, and consequently I think that a wide range of questions ought to be acceptable here.

Though I may not find a particular category of questions interesting or fruitful to pursue, that doesn't mean that no one else reasonably may. And since I'm under no obligation to pass judgment on questions in those categories, it makes sense for me to attend to the categories of questions that I do find interesting and to leave the others, unmolested, to their enthusiasts.

  • 1
    Good points on the segmentation of users, and that most users ignore some subjects. One comment though; lack of voting on "reasonable and unobjectionable" questions and answers is a problem in the sense that this is the mechanism at SE-sites of ranking answers. Even if all three answers to a question are unexceptional, one can still be better and more accurate, and if users don't vote on answers this difference in quality will not be shown. – fileunderwater Mar 21 '15 at 18:45
  • @fileunderwater: I have to admit that I'm not sold on the "one best answer" model for EL&U answers to a particular question. In my view, the more interesting a question is, the less likely it is to admit of a single all-encompassing answer. Given how slippery English language and usage is as a broad subject area and how knotty many of the questions that fall into it are, I often find myself upvoting multiple answers to good questions—even when I try to answer them too. In that situation, anointing one answer as the best one doesn't do justice to the worthiness and usefulness of the others. ... – Sven Yargs Mar 23 '15 at 5:48
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    ...On the other hand, many relatively simple questions posted on EL&U can be answered in a comment or in a single-sentence formal answer. When someone provides such an answer, other EL&U readers tend to consider the matter closed, without requiring an upvote endorsement. Indeed, I suspect that voting readers are more inclined to upvote a comment that resolves a simple question than to upvote an identically worded formal answer—because (perhaps) they think that upvoting a comment is equivalent to saying, "Yes, that's right," whereas upvoting a formal answer amounts to saying "Good answer!" – Sven Yargs Mar 23 '15 at 5:49
  • I agree that the "best answer" model works better for some types of questions, and for some SE-sites, and several answers are often useful to provide a broader perspective. However, isn't this mostly a problem with "accepting" particular answers (the "answered" tick mark). If we leave this issue aside, I still feel that voting is useful to distinguish useful/correct answers from unclear/incorrect answers, for instance by highlighting two answers as very useful with a 10+ score, one complementing answer with a score of 2 and 2 poor answers with a score of zero or below. – fileunderwater Mar 23 '15 at 13:43
4

TLDR: People cast about 5 votes per new post per day on both English and Biology. For further exploration, run both this first query on totals and this second query on rates against different Stack Exchange sites.

Comparing Like with Like

You have to compare like with like before you can compare anything at all. ELU and Biology are very unalike in daily visitors and questions.

Sorted by traffic

                        Beta? Visits  Questions
*English                no      286k    63  
 Arqade                 no      246k    37  
 Ask Different          no      232k    56  
 Programmers            no      138k    35  
 Unix & Linux           no      203k    84  
 Electrical Engineering no       72k    67  
 Workplace              no       25k    12  
 Rôle-Playing Games     no       15k    14  
*Biology                YES      10k    12  
 Webmasters             no       13k    16  
 MSE                    no        9k    26  
 Puzzling               YES       8k    11  

Sorted by questions per day

                        Beta? Visits  Questions
 Unix & Linux           no      203k    84  
 Electrical Engineering no       72k    67  
*English                no      286k    63  
 Ask Different          no      232k    56  
 Arqade                 no      246k    37  
 Programmers            no      138k    35  
 MSE                    no        9k    26  
 Webmasters             no       13k    16  
 Rôle-Playing Games     no       15k    14  
*Biology                YES      10k    12  
 Workplace              no       25k    12  
 Puzzling               YES       8k    11  

That 10k traffic number is rounding; the actual Biology traffic number to two significant digits is 9.8k not 10k.

So given that we are comparing unlike things, it would be unsurprising to learn that voting patterns may differ between the two sites. In some ways they do, but in the average number of votes cast per new post, they do not. This is illustrated below.


Comparing Totals

Here are the results of a query comparing posts, questions, and answers per day:

English daily totals for votes, questions, answers

SEDE graph of English daily votes, questions, answers

Biology daily totals for votes, questions, answers

SEDE graph of Biology daily votes, questions, answers


Comparing Rates

Given the number of votes per day and the number of posts (questions + answers), you can also plot how many votes there were per post on average. That’s the red line below. You can also try dividing the vote total by each of question and answer separately, but that isn’t as reasonable. Those are the other two lines below.

English average daily vote-rates per post, question, and answer

SEDE graph of English average daily vote rates per post, question, and answer

Biology average daily vote-rates per post, question, and answer

SEDE graph of Biology average daily vote rates per post, question, and answer

The way to understand that is to suppose there are 100 votes cast on 10 posts of which 2 are questions and 8 are questions. Then 100v / 10p is 10 v/p, 100v / 2q is 50 v/q and 100v / 8a is 12.5 v/a. It is a bit of a silly metric, perhaps. You can really only trust v/p in any regard, since you do not actually know the split on how v were applied to q&a separately.

Once you realize that and look at the red line on both graphs, which represents how many votes each post received on average, you notice that in fact both graphs show that line weaving around the 5 line, with ELU coming just a bit under.

So they aren’t really all that different.


For Further Research

I very strongly encourage folks to run both queries (the one on totals and the one on rates) against various different Stack Exchange sites, preferably those comparable in visits, questions, or both, to the ones under discussion.

  • I'm not sure if it's possible but shouldn't you also take into account the number of users active during the period - each user has but one vote per question and answer. Very roughly, in the previous quarter Biology.SE had about 600 users with a reputation change of +10 or more, while English.SE had around 6800. I have no idea what that means in terms of statistics but with 10 times more 'active' users I'd expect English.SE voting counts to be much higher than Biology.SE if they were roughly the same in votes cast per user. – Frank Mar 22 '15 at 18:06
  • @Frank That’s a good point. I wonder, do you think number of new posts might be a passable proxy for number of active users? – tchrist Mar 22 '15 at 19:29
  • I'm not sure what you could use to balance 'potential votes' vs 'actual votes' as it were but perhaps number of posts would be good start or maybe users who answered in the quarter - something like that. – Frank Mar 22 '15 at 23:55
  • Really nice summary, and always good to see more hard numbers. I was also considering the different activity levels at different sites, for instance that voting should accrue more quickly at larger sites. Looking at rates is definitely more informative,and votes/(postsday), votes/(postsday*active_users) and the ratio of upvotes vs. downvotes would all be interesting. However, I don't have any experience with writing queries to data.stackexchange.com so I only did a raw count on recent questions. [... cont.] – fileunderwater Mar 23 '15 at 8:34
  • [cont. ...]: I'm surprised that the differences aren't larger in your summary, since my perception is certainly that voting is more liberal at many other sites (especially upvote/downvote ratio). I will look more closely at your results and queries though. – fileunderwater Mar 23 '15 at 8:34
  • Finally, I agree that BioSE is not the best site to compare with, and I only included it among the three since that is the site I have the most experience with. Sites such as AcademiaSE, CrossValidated and TexSE are probably more useful for direct comparisons. – fileunderwater Mar 23 '15 at 12:36
  • Another question; this query is on votes per post (or question) for all posts right, and it does not focus on recent posts/questions? If so, it would be interesting to run a query that only looks at voting on recent posts (e.g. last week or month), since voting on old questions could otherwise swamp the voting patterns on new posts. Or have you taken this into account already? To look at votes per post over the first week of each post (maybe taking the size of the active community into account) and the up/downvote ratio over the same period of time should be interesting. – fileunderwater Mar 23 '15 at 13:34
  • @fileunderwater No, I haven’t taken anything like that that into account. My SQL fu approximates that of my Hong Kong fu. Feel free to fork the queries and edit them into whatever shape you’d like. Personally, I don't think it is going to be worth the effort, because no matter what results you do manage to produce, I don’t see much chance of changing the collective community, especially not in some blazing masterstroke where all things old are made new again. – tchrist Mar 23 '15 at 14:20
  • @tchrist My SQL-fu is currenly stillborn. I'll see if I can make sense of it later on, when I have the time. Of course I don't expect monumental changes, but that doesn't mean that meta discussions are meaningless. Baby steps. – fileunderwater Mar 24 '15 at 23:12
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N.B The privilege of viewing the number of upvotes and downvotes a post receives is visible when you earn 1,000 reputation points.


The fact of the matter is, even questions which are not easily answered by native speakers, are well-researched, and cite references, might still earn a few downvotes on El&U. This is a hard crowd to please. In its beta days—back in 2010—a "the-answer-is-obvious" question earned generous approval, and generally speaking, there was a greater air of tolerance and good-will.

As an example of today's tough crowd, see these comments left by two different users on two separate questions of mine. Users who did leave a note and explanation for their downvote (one of those rare occasions when I get a glimpse of the criteria used by some members.)

Comment one recommends that I redirect my search towards the different usage between abolish and abolishment, and their subtle difference in meaning. Please note I included the Oxford dictionaries links for each word, and an excerpt from a well-respected website citing there is effectively no difference in meaning.

Comment two criticizes me for not doing enough research. Please note that this comment received two upvotes which means that three users agree the question lacked research. I was stunned by that observation but luckily, some users did reply in my defence and the question was deemed useful enough to merit eight upvotes.

Comment three left by the same user on the same question says that the original question title "How common is the term “boondoggle”?" contradicts with the etymology tag, and says the question is not about etymology. I explain that it is, but nevertheless I modify the original title and specifically ask about its origins. However the user in question, never sees fit to reverse his downvote after I modify the question to appease him.

Is it any wonder I have ill feelings when the same user downvotes my answer to a question, which I posted several days later. An answer which he points out does not answer the OP. By the way, I am the OP in question. When I politely disagree and argue then he must therefore downvote the other three answers which answer my question, he acknowledges his error and professes he cannot reverse his downvote, because the system prevents him from doing so. He does upvote all the other answers nevertheless—hooray! But not my question—boo!

My point being that there are users who will take an instant dislike to a question or to the OP and downvote accordingly. There are users who rarely upvote any question or answer, I suppose they think a good question can only be posed by someone who has linguistic credentials. Maybe they're right. There are veteran users who upvote generously, in silence, and some who upvote and give voacal encouragement to newcomers. There are users who will help improve the legibility of questions being posted, which includes correcting typos and writing English with a capital letter. But seeing for the 500th time english or inglish it does get wearisome, and irritation (I admit I am feeling this myself) sets in.

  • "He does upvote all the other answers nevertheless—hooray! But not my question—boo!" That's just factually wrong and impossible for you to know. I can provide you with a screen shot if you really don't trust me when I say that I did not downvote your question and did not upvote any of the other answers. I apologised already for my lack of care in checking the edits. And you can choose to trust me when I say that I am not your serial downvoter or not but from my 1300 odd votes only 82 are downvotes and most of them have been on spam type Q&A. – Frank Mar 21 '15 at 9:56
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    @Frank Never accused you of serial downvoting, I would have flagged if I had suspected anything. I have flagged other times, sometimes the serial downvotes have been reversed, other times I've been told there was not enough proof. – Mari-Lou A Mar 21 '15 at 12:49
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    I've cautioned folks against assuming that a comment under the question comes from the downvoter. Sometimes the commenter is simply explaining why they felt an anonymous downvote was left, and ends up catching the heat. It's also worth noting that these two questions got one downvote each against several upvotes. I think sometimes we can focus too much on the small number of downvotes and not enough at the relatively large number of upvotes. – J.R. Mar 30 '15 at 9:59

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